Welcome to the
Task Force to Engage Maine's Youth
CMP BUILDING
Augusta, Maine
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY
1, 2007
Carol Carriuolo:
Briefly we went over the set up for the day and the use of information on the wall. Seats have been assigned to allow everyone to network with each other on what the groups have been doing.
I gave directions on where the small group brain storming should begin. The idea is to combine those within the Policy group and Legislative group and bring them together to inform one another about what is happening in each group.
Everyone is asked to complete this in ten minutes.
Pam Flood:
You have about four minutes to go here.
(Small group work is
still being done.)
Carol Carriuolo:
Okay, stop. Where ever you are is perfect.
Kathryn Markovchick:
I wish someone would tell me that.
Carol Carriuolo:
This is emerging situations and will happen more often as we move to a target date. Anyone want to start as we move around the room?
TABLE 1:
Participant: We will know we have been successful. With employment it is difficult with 8 year olds but to be able to move into the work force.
Carol Carriuolo:
We will compile it so just the highlights.
Participant: There would not be anyone falling through the cracks and communication between all parties.
TABLE 2:
Participant: A better data system because it is hard to keep track when we don't know who they are or where they are.
TABLE 3:
Participant: We talked about students that have issues when they move even when a short time in a school like a partial quarter.
We talked about a statewide diploma because of when you move around. The statewide diploma would count and be available.
TABLE 4:
Participant: Under 8 year olds we figure if they were working then we were successful. In 18 year olds for employment they would have increased diplomas, secondary education would be higher. Policy having some teeth in it would be good.
TABLE 5:
Participant: Better connection with disability and employment so everyone is on the same page.
TABLE 6:
Participant: Our group was subject to disruption so we didn't get anything done.
Carol Carriuolo:
Okay, Susan Lieberman can you tell us what is happening?
Susan Lieberman:
That is a lot of what we are doing in our group. We seem to be heading in the same direction. The target population I want to re-iterate which are those youth not engaged or at risk of disengaging from school or work because it happens earlier and earlier.
For the past few months our group has broken into groups. People are overwhelmed with the numbers and under whelmed with the connection of time. We are looking at what exists, what is missing, what should be shared and strategies. Some of the data collected was shared and is on the fact sheet for the legislative group so we are sharing this back and forth here.
Today we will finish some of our work and group some of the smaller categories to develop need statements. We are looking at (reading from a sheet with the listing).
Debbie Gilmer:
Shelley is at a conference in Rhode Island today. So we will pitch in. You will get a PowerPoint and fact sheet today. We will figure out how to get feedback from the Policy group. We will look at those materials and finalize them to some degree or have a version for folks to take and use.
We will also work on enhancing our schools for testimony and what do we need to use. We have an interesting report about 5 states that have highly mobile students with disabilities. It says DRAFT - do not disseminate across the top but we have permission to use it today. We will update you on the legislature and youth testimony.
We do have the most recent version of the governor’s bill. I don't know how many times we can suggest language. It came back from the Department on last Thursday on the 25th. I don't know where it is as Shelley has been gone this week.
If we do want to leave time at lunch we could share the PowerPoint.
Susan Lieberman:
Let's have it at 12:30 so people can ask questions.
Debbie Gilmer:
You will get a PowerPoint and fact sheet which is two pages because of all the data the other group shared with us.
Carol Carriuolo:
We are ready to rock and roll?
Susan Lieberman:
Any questions from either group? (No.)
Carol Carriuolo:
Okay, Data and Policy can move over to the other room now and the Legislative group stays here.
(GROUPS Break Up Into
Separate Rooms.)
Kathryn Markovchick:
If you all would move up so we can view this together and then break up into groups.
Debbie Gilmer:
Please sit with others you don't typically sit with too. People want to take a minute to look at what our outcomes for today are.
Kathryn Markovchick:
If you want to look at the outcomes and let us know if you have one to add we will do that now.
Debbie Gilmer:
Can we split the back table into two groups of three?
(Slide) OUTCOMES:
Kathryn Markovchick:
Does everyone know each other at their table? Would you like to do a round robin to get to know each other?
(Groups introduce
themselves.)
Kathryn Markovchick:
Everyone all set with outcomes?
Debbie Gilmer:
Anyone have any?
Kathryn Markovchick:
Janie does not have this slide so I will read it up here.
Debbie Gilmer:
Anything else to do?
Participant: Those are not in order though right?
Kathryn Markovchick:
No. First Debbie is going to run through the PowerPoint with all of you to see where it is now. Janie you have that now?
Debbie Gilmer:
We tried - Shelley and I to capture the comments from last time as well as hard copy feedback. I don't think we got everything but we brought copies on disk if we need to work on it. You should have a hard copy of it. The clearer your comments the easier it is to make the changes in the end.
How do you want me to do this?
Participant: Can we go through the hard copy first to make comments and then do that? So we are not focusing on both.
Debbie Gilmer:
Why don't we quickly go through this and then do that.
The Problem statement we made many changes to which comes from the NASD report. So we start with national data it is the 2004 census.
Participant: Is it the 2004 census or?
Debbie Gilmer:
This is date from the department of corrections and I only had data from Long Creek.
(Reading the slide) This is a 90 day program.
(Reading the slide) Be thinking as you look at the data if that captures what we are looking for.
(Reading the slide) We were asked to put a general statement in around general disruption.
(Reading the slide) The next statement is as it is defined in the legislature.
(Next slide) This talks about what happens when kids are disrupted.
(Next slide) Here are more statistics.
(Next slide) The Policy Group is looking at kids with safety plans or IEPs who are likely to be promoted. So it is a best practice type of stuff we are looking for.
(Next slide) These slides have not changed here.
(Next slide) This goes through the key points from the fact sheet.
(Next slide) This section has not been changed as we are still looking for information. We are waiting for this data. I would appreciate if this is still germane to what we are talking about.
(Next slide) These pieces are on the last section. I would like thoughts or recommendations on if it is too long or if this is useful or helpful.
Participant: How it will it be used is one of the questions. Will Maine Support Network host this because you would need more detail on this? People would need to be able to discern the information. I would like less on the slides and more on the presentation.
Debbie Gilmer:
I was not here at the December meeting when you decided to have this. It is to share with your constituents. Is it for people beyond us to be sharing?
Kathryn Markovchick:
It is on the web page.
Participant: If there is a presentation then the presenter can click through it. If someone does it on their own even then the reader can do it.
Participant: You can do both.
Debbie Gilmer:
This is your document so how do you want or want to create this. We can have two different versions of it.
Participant: The more accurate the information. I am not so concerned about all the information on the slides as they can make notes.
Participant: If you have a presentation with bullets you would add more. You have something to reflect when you have more information on the handouts.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Let's do a five minute comment - we will give you an extra copy at each table to record and give back to us for feedback. The next thing to work on is preparing testimony if you do testify. Again you would have opportunity to play and tweak the PowerPoint.
Let's take five minute in small group and maybe one person facilitates to make sure everyone has a chance to speak. Then we would ask you to report out the highlights and give us your documentation on it.
If anyone has a computer we have these on CD's as well.
(Groups discuss and
evaluate the power point.)
Kathryn Markovchick:
This is the silent quiet sign. Let's hear one or two table highlights from each group. Anyone want to start?
TABLE
Participant: We looked at this as a tool to use for those that don't know the topic. To do that there is so much good information but for someone who does not know the topic we feel it needs a different order. The first slide needs to be an attention getter and let them know what the problem is. The student does not have a job because of no diploma. To list why and then add the detail as a back up slide. For those who do not look at detail they can skip it and go through the problem, reasons why, and the solution. So by the time people get to the end they realize they have to support the legislation.
TABLE:
Participant: To follow that we felt the third slide had so much information - it is important but to make it visually user friendly and have a back up fact sheet with salient points. There are some areas we feel too much information is used and we lose people.
The educational disruption on page three is another example. We need that information but we need to think about how we present it.
On page 6 there was an example of consolidating some slides. Maybe there was a way to make it one slide instead.
On page 11 those three that deal with finances we should flip. The ending quote was outstanding.
TABLE:
Participant: We talked a lot about the audiences I work with where I am preaching to the choir. We talked about when people get this presentation they will manipulate it the way they want to present it. We didn't spend a lot of time editing.
I felt we didn't need to do that.
Kathryn Markovchick:
It is possible to have 2-3 different versions and personal preference too?
Debbie Gilmer:
You could personalize it with more slides and without.
Participant: We thought it would also be useful to youth. I would want something for when the legislation is passed I would know how to use that.
Participant: One of the additional things we thought of is it would work for a live presentation but also as a live action quote. You can email or call, all of those.
Participant: Also those that are willing to add their email, like ours, to answer those questions also.
Participant: I would caution about having it be a document to add other slides to. As soon as you have one changing the face of it...
Debbie Gilmer:
As Tom suggests there are multiple constituencies we need to share the information with. What parents need to know is different from policy makers.
If we distribute it on CD or electronically that you are presenting it and this is how you modify it.
Participant: I wonder if we could come up with base line absolutes and trust others are knowledgeable enough but I worry that some things could be lost. If we have a product descriptor I would feel more comfortable.
Participant: We would not add to it.
Kathryn Markovchick:
So having some things that are mandated but if you want to add things to the PowerPoint.
Debbie Gilmer:
How many computers do we have here today? (3)
Kathryn Markovchick:
Good, I will collect your comments now.
We want to follow a similar process now on the fact sheet now. Please do the same and have someone record that information.
(Groups discuss the
fact sheet)
Debbie Gilmer:
You have five minutes to finish looking over the fact sheet. Okay, time is up. How much more time?
(Groups continue
working on this.)
Kathryn Markovchick:
Okay, thank you. Who wants to go first? Changes or thoughts?
TABLE:
Participant: We added that we currently do not have accurate data. I recommended we put it on the second part. That is why we are doing this.
TABLE:
Participant: Another option might be to star it and put it at the bottom. I would not want it to read that the magnitude of the problem is not having data. We don't want to shift the problem.
Debbie Gilmer:
Was that it? Next table?
TABLE:
Participant: We thought the fact sheet was great and useful. The only suggestion we had was can we include the Department of Correction data?
TABLE:
Participant: Under key components under commitment to students maybe should be bolder. On the back about poor families when we talk about those from low incomes, is there a kinder way to say it rather than poor?
Participant: As opposed to non poor.
Participant: The Department of Education and I noticed it on the slide but you are saying there are 95 committals but if you look at the general population what is committal to what? What does it mean?
Participant: The bullets on the front page there - the state review team should have a colon as well there.
Debbie Gilmer:
That is good info. Thank you.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Anything else? Thank you.
What we would like to do is have you regroup yourself. We would like to do legislative testimony. This time the challenge will be given to you in writing and is to prepare the testimony and choose some in your group to do that and get feedback. So this would allow you to practice testifying on the bill so you have feedback if you are the one to do testifying on the bill.
So we thought it would be best to work in groups with people most similar to you and not more than 3-4. If you want to get in a group like that. If you get to that group one of you would be a materials manager and get the sheets here.
Debbie Gilmer:
We see this as a reference tool here. There are a couple copies here from the Data group. We only have two copies of that to share.
Kathryn Markovchick:
So get into groups and get your materials. Let's round robin.
Participant: My testimony is driven by JAG - …
Kathryn Markovchick:
So you might want to join a group to be a support person to give feedback on testimony.
Debbie Gilmer:
There are many in the group that have no experience. Part of this is modeling and learning.
Participant: So to be a coach.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Yes, those that do it daily this time of year please feel free to jump out.
(People introduce themselves
to find out where they might group up with people.)
Kathryn Markovchick:
(Dividing the group up
into similar groups to practice.)
Let me walk you through a few things. If you have more than one challenge at your table could you pass it forward?
So the challenge has two parts. The first part is shown up on screen here. That is what you have on your table.
Second Part Of The
Challenge
We are going to set this table up as the legislative hearing table and some people behind as part of the hearing.
Debbie Gilmer:
Let's move this table and have it face out and all you are in the audience too. If people could take notepads or post-its where ever you go.
Kathryn Markovchick:
We need six people to be - two groups as legislators and presenters. Who is first? You will testify first. Will you be the legislators first then?
Debbie Gilmer:
Does everyone have a note pad or post-its with a pencil?
Kathryn Markovchick:
People presenting are lucky because you will have transcription of your testimony. You will all get a copy and you can see the posted minutes but if you want our office to pull your segment to email let us know at Maine Support Network. We will pull your section and send it to you. Everyone will have everyone’s testimony.
They will listen to the testimony and then ask questions. We asked you to limit it to three minutes because in a huge hearing it may be limited so we thought to start out to do that and get you ready for it.
Participant: It is important to know your information enough to not just read it but know the information you are talking about.
Participant: Put your contact information on the top.
Participant: For today, I would hand this over when done?
Kathryn Markovchick:
For today one will be chair and you all have post-its and we want you as you listen to write down two things that were good about the testimony either delivery, or points made, or anything. Then write down one area you think was one that could be tweaked. On your post-it you might want to put down who it was that presented. Make sure your post-its are explanatory. So the presenters will have about 16-18 good news and about 7 pieces of information that could be helpful. So three minutes.
Participant:
Thank you for allowing me to testify today. My name is Chris and I am with the Department of Vocational Rehabilitation. I want to share a story with you. I met this young man who was removed from his home for sexual abuse. (Captionist cannot hear) He moved around from home to home which resulted in lost credits. He was taking a consumer math in school A and another in school B and ended up receiving no credit between the two. Because the young man was at risk this pushed him to drop out at 17 years old. Based on this story and others from western Maine this is an example of a system with no plan. It resulted in a drop out, a loss of a group home, and without preparation for the school or a real job. He lost opportunities for counseling and now is receiving financial assistance. Thank you for listening.
I am willing to answer any questions.
Participant: I do have one question. If we approve this bill and it passes will it cost money?
Participant: No.
Participant: What is the man doing now?
Participant: He is trying to catch up. For every two steps forward it is one back. He is attending Vocational Rehabilitation.
Participant: He has a job with you?
Participant: He is a VR client.
Debbie Gilmer:
Do you want to take a moment and jot down three comments? If everyone could provide feedback that would be good.
Kathryn Markovchick:
As soon as that is done. The group that presented can be the legislators, those that are legislators are observers. So individual feedback for each person of two positives. You are done so you get to take your name tags and move.
Next?
Participant: Hi. Thank you very much. My name is Mariah and this is Ahhmen. We are members of the Educational and Cultural Affairs Committee. I am the visual (captionist cannot hear?) and would like to tell you my story. I moved and had six different placements in a year and a half with different schools. I now go to Thornton Academy. Today I have an A+ in Physics and wanted to move to take Algebra. I wanted to move to Algebra 1 and if I could then I would be able to move up and the school won't let me. It put my spirits down as I want to be a regular student and have A's in other classes.
Participant: What are you doing to get ahead?
Participant: I asked my pre-Algebra teacher if she could stay after school twice a week to tutor me. I would hire her. (Captionist cannot hear?) I don't have anyone to help me with my homework as I live in a group home. Most students who live at home get help from their parents. I get help at school and in the special education room as there is no one to help me after school. Everyone else gets help from their parents. They keep me in a special education room because I can't get help at home.
Participant: Were there days you missed?
Participant: I missed two weeks of school. This is my first group home. Because they could not find transportation - I was fortunate with the school (captionist cannot hear?).
My plans are I am going to finish high school and then onto college. No ifs on that. Any questions or comments?
Participant: Why did the school tell you you could not switch?
Participant: They felt I had enough to do at home and felt it would be too much.
Participant: Do you have an advocate for you?
Participant: Do I have anyone at home?
Participant: Do I have someone in my life? They said it is up to the school because it is my education. Anything else? Thank you for your time.
Debbie Gilmer:
Okay, that was closer to four minutes.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Was there any other feedback I did not get for Chris?
Next:
Participant: My name is Erin Flynn, I am here for MSCA. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak to you on this important issue today. My purpose is to ask for your support on the Act to implement the recommendations of the Governors Task Force to Engage Maine’s Youth in a Successful School Completion.
I want to share a story with you to illustrate the importance of this legislation. As a school counselor I work with many students and one illustration I have is of a young man I worked with who was admitted to Saint Mary's Adolescent Unit for suicide. During his treatment at the hospital each day he would work on school work the hospital education coordinator provided. Upon discharge from the hospital and on re-admittance back to school, even with the folder of information provided by the hospital and student with several weeks later, the teachers have not decided whether or not to accept the work completed. There is no law when a student is hospitalized in this manner.
To make matters worse the student, trying to turn his life around, is participating in intensive outpatient therapy so he needs to leave to get treatment every day at 10:30. This forces and creates concerns about work completion. As it stands today, there is no guarantee that a plan or school work will be implemented or accepted. Without a law in place it does not support our students. Unfortunately, he is just one example of many students in our state affected and disengaging by a lack of clarity and consistency among school districts. I see it many times.
By supporting the legislation you will ensure that students receive credit for work completed. I want to share some data that supports this. Data from DHHS indicates that 392 students were in residential treatment centers. There have been 104 children and youth who have entered care sites as of October 2004. Another student found that over a 16 month period 84 disruptions occurred in 66% of these youth were not promoted. That was staggering. I urge you to support this bill because education disruption has a price - to this state, student and community. Students experiencing disruption have a higher drop out rate, and of those dropouts 72% are more likely to be unemployed. Your support of this bill will help Maine's Youth stay engaged in learning and earn credit toward graduation.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak. Are there any questions that I can answer for you?
Participant: We have run out of time.
Participant: Sorry, thank you for the opportunity to speak. Can I answer any questions?
Participant: What is the school doing about mandatory work? At my school I get the "have to do it work" - like essays.
Participant: That is a wonderful question but it is up to each school. It is depending on the teacher and what they want, either all the work or modified. This would give clarity among school districts on how to treat these types of students.
Participant: Thank you.
Participant: Thank you.
Debbie Gilmer:
Last group. The group that just testified is legislators.
Participant: I would like to thank you for letting me speak. My name is Ellen and the parent of three children. My son completed high school through the "normal and traditional pathway" and two have not. With special education services and an extra year he was able to get his diploma. My daughter dropped out of high school at 17 due to "too much anxiety" brought on by bullying and teasing. She has a mood disorder that puts her in one of the categories the legislature will address. She has since earned her GED. While it is too late for my daughter it is not too late for my youngest son, Shawn. This is his picture.
He is an 8th grader and John is reading at a 5th grade level. He has no self esteem, thinks he is "stupid" and has been retained once. Every day is a struggle to even go to school. In a regular classroom environment he cannot do the work. To look at him you would think he can handle anything. He is 6'4" and weighs 350 pounds and presents an imposing figure.
School is more imposing than John's physical size. He is at risk of being retained again this year. If it does John will, and I stress will, refuse to attend school. The school has told him already he will not get a diploma.
When we talk of at risk students that this legislature will benefit my son John is just one of the 100's of Maine students that will benefit.
If John knew he could earn credit for the work completed, if he knew that he could and would earn a high school diploma, he would start to believe in himself again.
You must vote in favor of this legislature to ensure that students such as my son have the opportunity to receive a high school diploma and enter into the world of work as collaborative, and to be a responsible and involved citizen in the community.
Do you have any questions? Thank you.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Okay, feedback? Okay, next group. It is lunchtime so if we could get the chairs around the table now.
Debbie Gilmer:
We had a parking lot request. Do you want a conversation at lunch Deb? Would you like to give us feedback on the PowerPoint we have running.
Participant: The only thing that pops is that the actual problem is not listed with statistics which you don't get to until 5 or 7. I want to know the issue right away. Other than that, great work.
Debbie Gilmer:
Yes and some have said that. We don't have the numbers and just speculate that. Anyone else want to weigh in on that? Thanks.
(Committee breaks
for lunch and reconvenes afterward.)
Debbie Gilmer:
We need volunteer legislators this time. Who wants to be a legislator? Who is presenting? Tom.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Are we ready? Everyone have post it notes. Legislators we will give you the three minute signal.
Participant: Good afternoon, my name is Tom (?) and I work at Sweetser. I would like to tell you a story and give you an example of what is happening now. I have a senior, 18 year-old, who was identified in special education after being removed from his home and placed in DHHS custody. He was placed in a private special purpose school. His last public school placement was in 9th grade. He was detained in the correctional system for a short period and now is unable to return to public school due to health issues. Public School placed this student via SPED process of a PET/IEP in a day treatment. DHHS placed the student residentially so it became an out of district placement. The location of DHHS placement of a group home is in a town without a high school. The private high school had no appropriate program and due to private status, their interpretation is that they are not mandated to develop an appropriate program. He is still in private school. This student came to me with aspirations to go to the community college. He is close credit wise but has no official transcript or diploma. There is NO system in place to CONSISTENTLY and EQUITABLY address this issue! The student has complied with Education Law and has earned the right to a diploma and official transcript as would another student enrolled in a Maine high school. Recently I have been able to negotiate with a private high school academy and because of my relationship with them I have been able to get them to develop a diploma. Without a consistent system in place or relationships with guidance and counselors it would not happen. He has done everything he has been required to do. Without a diploma it would narrow his aspirations.
Participant: I am sorry you are out of time. Questions?
Participant: You said graduation requirements - whose?
Participant: The academies graduation requirement.
Participant: Will they grant a diploma.
Participant: They will agree to. If the academy decided not to give him one would the state do it given the requirement.
Participant: Yes.
Participant: I don't understand the special education IEP but if there is an IEP does not that instruct you on that?
Participant: It only addresses the behavior areas and not academics. Does he have a transition plan?
Participant: Yes, he does.
Participant: If this bill were to pass would it cost money? How do you figure that?
Participant: It has to do with agreeing upon a system of credits.
Participant: So the sending school should be the granting institution.
Participant: Yes, may I continue.
Participant: Thank you for asking, go ahead.
Participant: If there is no sending school granting a degree then this legislature would allow that.
Debbie Gilmer:
You were in the hot seat Tom.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Feedback for Tom and any reactions on this process?
Participant: I am not sure but the financial piece was brought up.
Participant: We need to say that there is a long term saving of money as they will not be on state aid.
Kathryn Markovchick:
You will see if there is a cost to it or if there are hidden costs.
Participant: You can always defer to the DOE who is represented can answer that.
Participant: Some of the facts in the PowerPoint and kids that enter into poverty - having some facts at your fingertips you can say it is our understanding that it will not cost the state but save the state costs in kids getting jobs.
Debbie Gilmer:
Don't forget that I sent this youth testimony template out. The state agency that testified first used one of the stories. I will leave these here and it is up on the website now for our work group. The extent we can collect the letters and mock testimony could include the stories.
Participant: When you testify don't tell them what they have to do or must do - they don't like that.
Participant: David, I thought this was not supposed to have a fiscal note yet.
David Stockford:
We don't know yet.
Participant: One other thing I have noticed in hearings also typically when introducing yourself you need to say if you are in favor of it so they have a heads up on it.
Participant: They take it in order technically but the more you say it the more it sinks in.
Participant: I have one other thing to add. Long ago the rule I was taught in testifying, why you are there, and why you should testify. If you only get two minutes to talk and I have seen this happen, the important points are usually at the end. If you only have one minute what do you want to say and then go on.
Participant: Maybe we could have that posted of who you are and why. It makes a difference if you are a school teacher or a kid when testifying.
Kathryn Markovchick:
I handed the feedback out before lunch. Would you like to review or should we go on?
Okay, that closes that section in preparing testimony. The middle of it will be on the website. If you want a cleaned up version and you want that or someone else’s let us know and we will copy and paste that to you as this comes as a straight transcription.
Participant: Did you go over that you should bring 20 copies of what you are going to say?
Kathryn Markovchick:
If it should happen fast before the next meeting, although I am not worried because of the diversion now...
Debbie Gilmer:
People are saying mid to late March. Until it gets an LR number we have a ways to go.
We have three groups for our action plans we started in September. I will add a third group to work on the PowerPoint and a group on school completion plans and we have one for the credit formula.
Maybe one table here for credits here, PowerPoint over here, and school completion plan here.
Kathryn Markovchick:
We would like you to get together in group, what do you need to do to complete your task, and if you need help then Debbie or I would come over to help your group.
One other note is that with the action plan we develop we will send out and you can email us back about it.
Okay, go ahead and move into your groups. Let's work until 2 pm and then report out to see where we are.
Debbie Gilmer:
That is the recommendation we include in our report.
(Groups break up to
begin the directed work.)
If you could write down two things that worked for you today and one thing you would have changed. Also if you could list one thing you would like to happen at the next meeting.
(Showing the revised
power point)
Debbie Gilmer:
It has been talked about members using this with their constituents and there is a fact sheet to accompany it.
Pam Flood:
I just wonder how much energy is for this. My people said who is going to have to do this in school and who takes the time to do this.
Pam Flood:
I don't see our group fighting this.
Kathryn Markovchick:
Okay, may I have your reflection thoughts here? Anything else? Any closing thoughts?
We are officially done.